Part Three Of An Aero-News Interview With Eclipse CEO Vern Raburn

By Kevin R.C. "Hognose" O'Brien

• Read Part One
• Read Part Two

INTRO: Welcome to Part III of our interview with Eclipse Aircraft CEO Vern Raburn.

In this segment, Raburn discusses his vision of the Eclipse as an airplane built to have the consistency and reliability of an appliance, and contrasts that with the hand-fitting and early Industrial Age approach of some competitors. We talk a little more about his T-6, his friendship with the late, great Jeff Ethell, and you'll learn what the one flying thing is that his family begged him not to do.

Vern Raburn: We just flew 1400 miles here in an all-electric, all-digital, all-computerized airplane. With all the production systems in it, from electric actuators to electric pitch trim, to, you know, a computerized electric power distribution system. Electric actuators on the gear. Using a total glass cockpit to control everything. Electronic circuit breakers.

It just worked.

You know, it just did what we said it was going to do.

Aero-News: Like people expect machinery to do.

Vern Raburn: Like cars run today. Like... *washing machines* run today.

Aviation -- and specifically, General Aviation -- is the only industry left in the world where there's two unique attributes to it:

One is, everything is bespoke. Every single airplane is different. You can't take a door off a Cessna Caravan and put it on another one. It won't fit. Cause each one of 'em is individually hand-fitted. You can't take a wing off of a Citation and put it on another Citation. Because each one is individually fitted and rigged to that airplane.

It's the same way Jaguar built cars until 1995 -- five years after Ford bought 'em. And invested five billion dollars in retooling the factory and the cars.

Aero-News: And now, amazingly, you can drive them in the rain. [Anyone who owned an older Jag or other old British sports car knows what we mean].

Vern Raburn: You can drive them in the rain! And in 1995, they had a significant
event: they were able to take a door off one car and put it on another car, and it actually fit.

Aero-News: Good heavens! For the first time since the 1930s when they started building Jaguars.

Vern Raburn: Exactly, Exactly! Citations. Cessnas. Virtually all the aircraft.
Even -- to a lesser extent, but even the Cirruses are that way. They're still sort of individually fit up.

You can take any part off this airplane [indicates N503EA] and put it on another airplane. Take the empennage off. You can take the wing off.

Aero-News: So you're the Eli Whitney of aircraft?

Vern Raburn: I prefer to say, Lexus of aircraft. In that we maintain the tolerances and therefore... we design quality, as opposed to inspect, or try to craft quality.

The other aspect of general aviation that's really pathetic, besides this sort of bespoke nature, this handbuilt nature of the product, it's an industry that believes innovation is irrelevant! It's an industry that believes that innovation is at best to be avoided, at worst to be accepted grudgingly.

So we just think that that can all change.

Aero-News: How do you say that? Can you give me an example of, "innovation accepted grudgingly?"

Vern Raburn: We've had the technology to do glass panels for at least a decade.
It's just now available. And as you pointed out, it's being driven by the upstart competition. It's coming in and forcing the established guys to say, "Oh gosh, golly, I guess we'll do it."

Systems. I mean, this aircraft uses 142 electronic circuit breakers.
Electronic circuit breakers are multiple orders of magnitude more reliable. We know now that mechanical thermal circuit breakers, after about ten years, don't work either reliably or predictably. Meaning, either they don't work, or they don't [Vern is drowned out by a low pass of multiple T-6s].

Aero-News: It's music!

Vern Raburn: I used to fly with a team like that in Phoenix, in my T-6.

THESE guys are good. The Aeroshell North American team. They're the best guys in the world.

Aero-News: So, I reckon perhaps when Eclipse is a little more ...
established, we might see you back in the T-6 again?

Vern Raburn: I sure as hell hope so! You're out of airplanes when you're out of T-6s, as far as I'm concerned.

Aero-News: [laughter]

Vern Raburn: I mean, you're not a real pilot until you can fly a T-6.

Aero-News: When did you learn to fly the T-6? How did you prepare? Let's change gears again, back to the back history.

Vern Raburn: Let's see... I got checked out in the T-6 in... 1985. I'd never flown a tailwheel airplane.

Aero-News: [eyebrow raised] That was your first tailwheel airplane?

Vern Raburn: Well, I went out and got about four hours in a Citabria. And never even really got signed off for solo. And then I learned to fly from a great guy, who really was one of the most unique guys in the world. He was a true aviation historian, really specialized in World War II, wrote something like... 35?... books.

Aero-News: Are you talking about Jeff--

Vern Raburn: Ethell!

ANN --Ethell?

Vern Raburn: Yeah, Jeff taught me to fly T-6s. I learned to fly B-25s and T-6s from Jeff. Also, Jeff checked me out in a P-51.

Aero-News: It's a sad business, sad business [referring, as Vern understands, to Jeff's premature death]

Vern Raburn: Yeah. Well. Jeff's kids -- I bought the first PC for Jeff. Rather than pay him for some instruction, I got him set up on that, and we were really good friends. I've stayed in touch with Betty and his kids.

Aero-News: He was a great guy.

Vern Raburn: He was a wonderful guy! I mean, the whole family was... you know, it was really interesting. I was so torn up over that, because I lost another very good friend about six months later, who also taught me a lot about flying.

And I saw Betty and the kids at Oshkosh. We had a big formation there. 
We did a missing man formation for Jeff.  I went up in the Connie -- and Jeff had flown co-pilot in the Connie -- it was so right, because he taught me how to fly T-6s and P-51s, and I taught him the Connie. Oh, he loved to fly the Connie.

Aero-News: So you got him some payback while he was still alive. OUT-standing.

Vern Raburn: Absolutely!

And, you know, I was still very torn up. It was really -- it really -- it really deeply affected me.

And it was a couple years before I stopped thinking, "Hey, I think I'm gonna call Jeff this afternoon and talk to him about...."

But THEY [Jeff's family] -- they were so happy, because their faith was SO strong. And it was just such a testament, such a testament... the strength of their faith, the strength of JEFF's faith, they knew he'd gone to a better place and they were happy for him.

They really, really, really were happy. That helped a lot of us, to get through that time. That they were so happy.

But he's the guy that taught me how to fly the T-6!

And then, I played around with racing for a while.

Aero-News: With racing? How'd you do?

Vern Raburn: I never actually got into a race!

Of all the things I've done in aviation: airshow aerobatics, helicopters, gliders, everything else; that's the only thing that my wife, and my dad, and my mom all said, "No. We don't want you to do this." So they all kind of ganged up on me, and I figured, well...

Aero-News: So we had what AA would call a "family intervention" here!

Vern Raburn: [laughing] That's right! Exactly.

Aero-News: Aviators Anonymous. A 12-step program...

Vern Raburn: That's right. They never said "no" to anything else, but that one they said, "T-6 racing is kinda..."

A FAN (interrupting): I want to say congratulations on the first show!

Vern Raburn: Hey! Thank you. Glad we made it!

FAN: Oh, yeah. You flew it over?

Vern Raburn: No, I didn't fly it. I flew the chase plane. But everything just worked! The way it's supposed to!

Aero-News: Anyway, thank you for sharing that, about Jeff and the T-6. I never met him, but I was a fan of his. The first book I picked up of his, I remember, it was over 20 years ago. He co-wrote it with somebody. It was about the Falklands War.

Vern Raburn: Yeah! I remember that book.

Aero-News: Air War South Atlantic. And a guy I knew was a survivor of that helicopter that turned over, one of the SAS guys in the back. And I sent him the text about that crash, and he said. "Where did this guy learn all this stuff?" So I looked for his name ever after.

Vern Raburn: He was phenomenally, he was an extremely intelligent guy, besides just being a really, really nice human being. And he could just absorb stuff and remember stuff, and very few people I know are like that. He could just recall stuff. His Dad was a great guy, I got to know his Dad, flew with his Dad some.

Aero-News: His Dad was a P-38 pilot, wasn't he?

Vern Raburn: That's why he [Jeff] was flying the P-38 that day [his fatal accident]. His Dad actually flew both P-38s and P-51s. He was in the same squadron as [Chuck] Yeager and [Bud] Anderson. And so, his Dad used to tell me stories that were just amazing.

Aero-News: All those old heroes are passing.

Vern Raburn: [sadly] They're just about all gone now.

Aero-News: We've got to try to do the best we can to take their place. They left a lot of big flying boots for us to fill, that's for sure.

Vern Raburn: Absolutely, Absolutely. I completely agree.

Aero-News: Well, I really look forward to the day that I see you back in your T-6...

Vern Raburn: Me too! [laughs]

Aero-News: ...and Eclipses all over the place...

Vern Raburn: Yeah! Then I'll... then... I sold the Connie, but as soon as Eclipse is certified, and we get things going, then I'm gonna buy a P-47. That's the airplane I lust after.

Aero-News: Not many of those to be had.

Vern Raburn: No, but -- with enough money, you'll find one.

Aero-News: If you want it badly enough, you'll get it...

Vern Raburn: Yeah. I like round engines, I don't like pointy-nose airplanes! I like round engines.

Aero-News: The ultimate ones are that and the Corsair, I suppose.

Vern Raburn: For some reason -- I've flown the Corsair a couple of times, but for some reason, they're not it. For me, the P-47 is it.

Like for a lot of people, F-86 is, like, the real jet. To me, the P-47 is the real fighter. I just like it more than the P-51.

Aero-News: Most people can't really pick. The more you fly, the more you realize, "I want one of each."

Vern Raburn: Of course! [like it's the most natural desire on Earth -- maybe it is]

Aero-News: But -- apart from the Eclipse, because I'm sure that's in a special place in your heart -- do you have a favorite. Do you have something special --

Vern Raburn: That I fly, or just in general?

Aero-News: Would that be two different aircraft?

Vern Raburn: Yeah. I think. There's a couple aircraft that I would truly, truly love to fly. There's three or four airplanes that I would give anything to fly. An SR-71. The Concorde. I got a full cockpit checkout in the Concorde once, One of the guys who was the senior captain flew our Connie for us. So I got to do a fifteen minute flight on the flight deck of the Concorde from Heathrow to Farnborough.

And I actually got to fly in it just before they retired it. I said, screw it, I don't care what it costs, I'm gonna do this one more time. I'd love to have flown that airplane.

I'd give anything to have flown an F-105. To me, a 105 is... talk about a serious, balls-the-size-of-watermelons type of airplane.

Aero-News: The jet successor, ultimately, of that P-47.

Vern Raburn: Exactly.

Aero-News: From the Republic Iron Works.

Vern Raburn: Exactly.

Aero-News: I'll tell you what, I've been involved over the last couple of years with a couple of things with Vietnam veterans. I'm obviously not, at my age, a Vietnam veteran. But I served, and the guys that trained me, the older guys, all my mentors were. And so there's been a bunch of events, and there's a bunch of F-105 pilots still kicking around.

Vern Raburn: Oh, yeah.

Aero-News: And those guys, those guys are as big and as bold and as brave as that airplane that carried 'em.

Vern Raburn: Brian Barents is one of our board of directors. Chairman of Learjet, and Galaxy before it sold to Gulfstream. And then he started Aereon, the guys that are doing the supersonic business jet.

He was a 105 driver, he was a Thud driver in Vietnam. And I asked him -- when he retired as a Brigadier General in the Air Guard in Kansas: B-1, F-16, F-15, I said, Brian, what's your favorite airplane?

He said, "Oh, the 105, without any question."

And I love the F-100; to me, the F-100 is about the prettiest airplane ever built.

And then, in terms of piston-engined aircraft, the [Beech] Staggerwing, and the P-47.

Vern Raburn: Can't fault your taste, there. Right down the line, outstanding machinery. I guess that's probably a good note to close on!

Do you have any other message you'd like to send to our readers?
Anything you'd like to say?

Vern Raburn: I guess two things.

One is, we really do believe, and I think we're proving it on almost a daily basis, that Eclipse can change the paradigm, can change the rules in general aviation. Which means, in turn, that general aviation can go back to the role it once played, which is the role of an important central component of the transportation system.

Aero-News: In the 1920s and 1930s, aviation was going to change the world.

Vern Raburn: I would say that lasted well into the fifties. General aviation and air transportation held a parity with each other until the turbine engine came along. And you can really set that mark in 1959, when the 707 came along. And the transition wasn't complete until the very late sixties. I think the last Connie flew [passengers] commercially in 1969.

Aero-News: Well, you could pick other transition points. Like when Pan Am drove the cost of seats down on international flights. until then, jet flight was strictly for the well-heeled.

Vern Raburn: The guy who really did that was Don Burr at People Express. (NOTE TO EDITOR: most readers won't remember that 1980s carrier. He's the guy who said, $49.95, I'll take you to Florida.

I think the were two big changes, though, that have taken General Aviation from the role of "important component of the transportation system" to being, either, just for the extremely rich, extremely elite, or just, purely recreational in nature. And one is the advent of the turbine propulsion system. Because I don't care how you cut it, I don't care what you say, I don't care about what the guys at Continental and Lycoming say, or Bombardier. Piston engines are inherently less reliable than turbine engines. Period, end of discussion.

Aero-News: Absolutely. You've got more moving parts... more friction.. it's an engineering fact.

Vern Raburn: It's just physics. It's not opinion. Besides which, the data back it up, that piston engines are generally about ten times less reliable than turbine engines. And in fact, you can go back and trace the safety record that the airlines have today back to the 707. Because the airlines are so much safer today than they once were.

And then you had this business change of airline deregulation. And so you had a technology change and a business change. We're trying to do the same thing -- a technology change and a business change. The way we build airplanes is very different than how Cessna builds airplanes.

And so we think that we can bring general aviation back to parity [with the airlines]. We think we can bring general aviation back to relevancy again. Which means, not as a recreational endeavor -- which is wonderful! And I think that the stuff that the EAA's done on Light Sport Aircraft and the Sport Pilot license is actually going to radically help that, and reintroduce that, aviation as sheer joy --

Aero-News: Well, I think you will actually help them by driving interest in aviation.

Vern Raburn: Exactly! It's going to be very synergistic -- and so, if we can do that, and the other parts of this business can play their role, then I think what we can do is take general aviation back to the days when it didn't matter whether you got in a Beech 18 or a DC-3. It was basically the same airplane except for the number of seats. And that's what we're really trying to do here.

We do that, and will change, not only what people use general aviation for, but we'll change the relevance of general aviation. We'll just become a healthy, vibrant industry. Airports will be important to communities again as opposed to being a rich playboy's hang out, and people will start thinking about traveling in little airplanes, not just big airplanes.

Aero-News: And you'll have second order and third order effects in the economy --

Vern Raburn: Absolutely.

Aero-News: -- because of the greater efficiency of using GA --

Vern Raburn: Absolutely!

Aero-News: -- than the very inefficient hub-and-spoke airline system we have now.

Vern Raburn: Absolutely.

Aero-News: You can't beat it for a long trip; you know I took the mailing tube here from Boston.

Vern Raburn: And I'm going to go home on Southwest. Because they're the only ones with a nonstop flight from Orlando to Albuquerque. And for 250 bucks, I'm going to get home a whole lot cheaper than I flew down here [in the Mu-2 chase plane -- Ed.] But boy, I came down here on my schedule. Now I gotta leave at a certain time --

Aero-News: On their schedule. And that's the way it is.

Vern Raburn: That's right.

Aero-News: That's why, despite all of the push behind mass transit, people want to have their cars. Why? Because a car is freedom.

Vern Raburn: Sell a lot more cars than we do buses.

Aero-News: And there's your car for the 21st Century (indicating the Eclipse 500).

Vern Raburn: (Laughing)  I'm not sure I'm ready to go THAT far!

FMI: www.eclipseaviation.com